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Steamhammer’s devourers are almost OK now

A quick note: I finally got devourers working sort of OK in the development Steamhammer. They are no longer horrible and useless as in the live version. Of course this means that I instantly get new items on my to-do list, like “teach other units to target enemies that carry acid spores” and “teach FAP about the effects of acid spores.” One step at a time!

As a side effect, corsairs and valkyries are also better. The corsair-dark templar opening is improved to the point that it is... not good, but within shouting distance of acceptable. The work was a combination of bug fixes, improved tactics, and adding a new MicroAirToAir unit controller for the air-to-air splash units.

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krasi0 on :

Valkyries are quite finicky. I still wonder if it'd be a good idea to go mass valks against Tscmoo P's carriers.

DanG on :

I think you'd be better off with Wraiths or even BCs. Valkyries lose 2/3 of their attack damage against Carrier hulls due to armor. Wraiths, however, are extremely threatening to Carriers, especially with cloak. They trade well for cost; cloak forces Observers which the Protoss player may not otherwise have; and Carriers can't escape Wraiths at all, so if the Carriers get into a bad fight they all just die. And if you want to be really mean, you can scan and focus down all the Observers.

Jay Scott on :

I agree that valkyries are not a good answer on their own. Carriers have base armor 4, and interceptors spread out too much to suffer the full effect of valk splash. If goliaths are forced to walk long distances because of map paths, then it’s normal to make a lot of turrets, since turrets cost only minerals. I think if goliaths get jammed on obstacles and can’t group well, then adding a small number of valkyries might be good. Valks will take the shields off in a flash.

LetaBot on :

Combine 1 or 2 valks with ghosts. Lock the carriers down and use the high DPS from valks to take off the shields quickly. Then finish off with goliaths.

jtolmar on :

If I did my math right, valks are more cost effective at dealing damage than wraiths if you can average hitting more than three carriers (3.25) per shot. I feel like that's pretty optimistic already, but wraiths can also focus fire (which my math doesn't take into account) so they'd take less damage in an "equivalent" exchange.

krasi0 on :

It's kinda hard to average such a high number of carriers per valkyrie rocket when you play against Tscmoo Protoss. His carriers just surround you from everywhere :P

Antiga / Iruian on :

Sprite limit is also a real problem in carriers vs valks, you can't really build more than 3-4 before the rest don't actually do any damage in a large battle vs carriers.

I second the cloaked wraiths plan, they are awesome vs carriers. With bot micro lockdown may also be extremely good for cost.

Marian on :

terran air is not a reliable answer to carriers because:
1. wraiths
- can only work as a surprise tactic, with a few observers in place you will lose a lot of wraiths while sniping them
- are paper planes and can be hard countered by corsairs(note that corsairs do 100% damage to wraiths while only 50% to mutalisks)
2. valkyries
- as already mentioned carriers have 4 armor
- there is some in game missile limit which affects valkyries (though this was apparently fixed in 1.18)
- once you have too many valkyries protoss can just switch full ground and you are stuck with useless supply
3. battlecruisers
- could work on paper, but are too slow and continuous storm and mind control are great counters
- dragoons are backbone of protoss army and trade fairly well vs small numbers of bcs

krasi0 on :

Same thoughts exactly... But goliaths don't work against TscmooP's perfect microed carriers, either. I even used to keep a few replays where 200/200 mech army with 30+ goliaths loses to 180/200 Protoss army of carriers and dragoons. Goliaths just frequently get stuck not shooting, etc.

Marian on :

Watch some Flash games vs protoss, they look so weak..
After you scout protoss carriers or perhaps even better before protoss has built carriers(fleet beacon + stargate blinking) you need to change your game.
Your army composition changes from tanks+vultures to mass goliaths a few tanks and a few vultures.
Carriers are less mobile than protoss ground so you can start mass expanding - there will not be enough time and units to stop you.
This is a part krasi0 is actually very good at so you just need to give the bot a green light to go full macro after you scout carriers.
The key to micro is to kill interceptor unless the carriers are in open field where you can decimate them easily.
It takes 6? shots for unupgraded goliath to shoot down an interceptor.
With upgrades this can go well down to 4.
So with bot split target micro this could become rather easy.
You try to stay out of carrier range and use scans wisely to reveal units above cliffs etc.
My estimation is that carriers should not work against terran high level bots if microes properly.

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