archive by month
Skip to content

more thoughts on CherryPi

Observation 1: CherryPi makes only zerglings, hydralisks, and mutalisks. That is it for combat units. Also it prefers the most basic units: Zerglings most, mutalisks least.

Observation 2: CherryPi seems to limit itself to a small number of opening build orders. For example, it seems to have 2 ZvZ builds, one nine pool into zergling pressure and one turtle into spire. The opening builds are varied to adapt to the situation in some way; I haven’t been able to discern how much is due to hand-coded reactions and how much to the learning system. Even so, neither build looks impressive in itself.

Observation 3: CherryPi has inconsistent micro skills. Some skills are outstanding, like storm dodging. Some are inferior, like zergling targeting. Micro doesn’t seem to have been a point of heavy emphasis.

And yet CherryPi is doing extremely well, keeping near the top of the rankings. I imagine that that is partly because (as has been pointed out) it is tuned to beat the strongest opponents, and voters like to match it against exactly those opponents. I don’t think that’s the whole story. I think the learning system deserves much of the credit.

All the observations support a story that the learning system is where the heavy development effort has gone. 1. Empirical learners need data. When the situation is simpler, they can get by with less data. CherryPi might support few combat units because the effort went elsewhere, or it might be a deliberate choice to make life easier for the learning system (at least for now). 2. Similarly for the small range of opening choices. Maybe they didn’t have time to polish more choices; maybe the learning system learns how to use each opening, and they need few enough choices that it is forced to learn a decent amount. 3. Poor micro in some situations probably means that they haven’t had time to work on it. The effort went elsewhere.

Of course this is speculation. You could argue the opposite, because the learning system is not mature either. We can tell because it has visible holes. For example, it struggles with Juno by Yuanheng Zhu, the cannon contain bot, and it has some trouble with heavy rushes like those by Wuli or Black Crow, which play easy-to-understand strategies that you might expect to be easy to learn to counter. In my story, that is of course because learning is hard.

My read on the project’s style is that they are pushing ahead hard and in consequence allowing bugs and sloppiness to creep in to a degree. If I am reading it right, then when the next round of tournaments comes up after the middle of the year, we can expect CherryPi to be formidably capable. It won’t matter if they lose 5% of their games to bugs, provided the long tournament allows time for the bot to learn how to win almost all the rest. And, you know, a sufficiently smart learning system might be able to learn how to work around bugs....

Trackbacks

No Trackbacks

Comments

Antiga / Iruian on :

The source from AIIDE is available for Cherrypi. Worth the read! It doesn't appear beyond build orders that there are really any differences from it to the SSCAIT version.

Jay Scott on :

Really? If true, I’m surprised.

Antiga / Iruian on :

I added a hardcounter for cherrypi that wins vs it's current iteration almost everytime.

That's all that is required for steamhammer.

"CherryPi" : "9-9Gate",

Jay Scott on :

Yes, so far the hard rush is winning every time. I watched the games. Quite a hole in the armor.

Nininene on :

As for units it makes: you forgot scourges (quite common in the zvz turtle build) and ultralisk (very rare, but can appear in late games of macro style zvt. See this game as an example http://www.openbw.com/replay-viewer/?rep=https%3A%2F%2Fsscaitournament.com%2FReplays%2FCHERRYPI%2F245163-Cher_Simo-ZvT.rep)

Jay Scott on :

Oh, I forgot scourge and did not know about the ultralisks. Thanks!

MicroDK on :

In one of the games vs Microwave CherryPi did a 2 base turtle into hydralisks. Is that a third ZvZ build or just a variation based on reactions?

Jay Scott on :

I didn’t see that game! As far as I know, it could be either. At some point, I should study the games closely and try to figure out the range of adaptation.

Tully Elliston on :

"Also it prefers the most basic units: Zerglings most, mutalisks least."

Makes sense no? Zerglings appear in virtually all Z games, mutalisks don't - makes sense to focus on Zergling skills first.

Not to mention that an early advantage gained with superior zergling use will snowball into the later game.

Jay Scott on :

Yes, it’s a logical order to develop skills in.

Add Comment

E-Mail addresses will not be displayed and will only be used for E-Mail notifications.

To prevent automated Bots from commentspamming, please enter the string you see in the image below in the appropriate input box. Your comment will only be submitted if the strings match. Please ensure that your browser supports and accepts cookies, or your comment cannot be verified correctly.
CAPTCHA

Form options

Submitted comments will be subject to moderation before being displayed.